tom price ... sti ca....

[Gore]

Guarda Gore, questa e' una questione molto dibattuta.Non vi e' alcuna prova clinica o riscontro ,che un eccesso proteico, protratto nel tempo possa danneggiare i reni.E dire che gli eccessi proteici sono all'ordine del giorno, non solo dai BB, ma anche da miriadi di sedentari che mangiano bistecche di vari kili.
Tutto questo da sempre.Se sino ad ora non vi e' nemmeno uno dico uno studio che dimostri il danno, possiamo stare tranquilli.
Si possono assumere in totale sicurezza almeno 5 grammi per kilo corporeo.
Lo dice anche Di Pasquale nell' ultimo ON, e lui non e' uno stolto.

Master, io non parlavo di danni permanenti, ma di un affaticamento...
perchè mi vien difficile immaginare quanto eccesso di un alimento serva per massacrare realmente i reni...

io ad esempio in periodi di dieta ferrea tengo tra i 4 e i 5 grammi per kg e non ho riscontrato problemi.

certo che 700g sono davvero tanti....

[Gore]

Ora come ora 300 grammi al giorno.Neanche tanti.

infatti... quindi sei a poco piu di 3g per chilo

[master wallace]

Master, io non parlavo di danni permanenti, ma di un affaticamento...
perchè mi vien difficile immaginare quanto eccesso di un alimento serva per massacrare realmente i reni...

io ad esempio in periodi di dieta ferrea tengo tra i 4 e i 5 grammi per kg e non ho riscontrato problemi.

certo che 700g sono davvero tanti....

Il punto e' che l'affaticamento come si misura? Dagli esami? Puo' essere, ma e' un concetto molto nebuloso.

[Gore]

Il punto e' che l'affaticamento come si misura? Dagli esami? Puo' essere, ma e' un concetto molto nebuloso.

si l'affaticamento è rilevabile oggettivamente dagli esami...

ma a livello fisico mi chiedo se un eccesso di pro possa essere percepito fisicamente...

ti faccio un esempio:
io in gara quando vado a togliere l'acqua gli ultimi giorni , a volte sento un certo affaticamento alla bassa schiena all'altezza dei reni e applicando una pressione sui medesimi avverto un leggero fastidio.
ma questo dipende per certo dallo stress a cui i reni son sottoposti a causa del brusco e forte calo di liquidi

ma mi chiedevo se potesse accadere la stessa cosa visto che in nessun'alta occasione ho mai avvertito qualcosa di simile

[Manx]

Ora come ora 300 grammi al giorno.Neanche tanti.

infatti, sono a 270 io.

[Eagle]

Guarda Gore, questa e' una questione molto dibattuta.Non vi e' alcuna prova clinica o riscontro ,che un eccesso proteico, protratto nel tempo possa danneggiare i reni.E dire che gli eccessi proteici sono all'ordine del giorno, non solo dai BB, ma anche da miriadi di sedentari che mangiano bistecche di vari kili.
Tutto questo da sempre.Se sino ad ora non vi e' nemmeno uno dico uno studio che dimostri il danno, possiamo stare tranquilli.
Si possono assumere in totale sicurezza almeno 5 grammi per kilo corporeo.
Lo dice anche Di Pasquale nell' ultimo ON, e lui non e' uno stolto.

Clin J Am Soc Nephrol. 2006 Nov;1(6):1293-9. Epub 2006 Sep 27. Links
Advanced glycation end products and nephrotoxicity of high-protein diets.

Uribarri J, Tuttle KR.
Division of Nephrology, Department of Medicine, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, New York, USA.

The popularity of high-protein diets has surged recently as obesity has become more and more common in the United States and other developed nations. In view of the high prevalence of type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease among obese people, it is important to understand potential effects of high-protein diets on the kidney.
The hypothesis that high-protein diets are nephrotoxic because of their excessive dietary advanced glycation end product (AGE) content and an increased amino acid load that enhances AGE formation in situ was explored.
This review discusses the following evidence:
(1) High-protein diets are deleterious to the kidney;
(2) AGE are metabolic mediators of kidney damage;
(3) dietary protein-derived AGE contribute to proinflammatory and pro-oxidative processes in diabetes and kidney disease; and
(4) dietary protein-derived AGE produce functional and structural abnormalities that are involved in kidney damage.
Future research should consider dietary AGE as a potential therapeutic target for kidney disease in obesity, diabetes, and perhaps other causes of chronic kidney disease.


Queste sono le conclusioni dello studio ... vedete un po' voi ...

Conclusion
Elucidating mechanisms of diet-induced kidney damage is
critical to more effectively target therapies for lifestyle-related
CKD and to improve nutritional recommendations. Compelling
data from experimental models and human studies indicate
that excess dietary protein promotes progressive kidney
damage through increasing the AGE burden. Conversely, very
low dietary protein intake may lead to malnutrition, especially
in patients with advanced CKD. A prudent approach is to
recommend that patients with CKD achieve the recommended
dietary allowance of dietary protein (0.8 g/kg per d, or about
10% of calories) with an emphasis on protein that has high
biologic value and is low in AGE. The dietary AGE load can be
minimized by consuming nonmeat proteins and culinary methods
that reduce AGE formation during cooking (steaming,
poaching, boiling, and stewing instead of frying, broiling, or
grilling) (45,54,55). Future research should address dietary
AGE as a potential therapeutic target for kidney disease. Studies
that span basic mechanisms to clinical treatment trials will
be required to understand fully and implement best practices in
this area. In the meantime, limitation of dietary AGE seems
prudent in those with obesity, diabetes, and other risk factors

for CKD.

[Manx]

perö ce ne sono altrettanti di studio che affermano il contrario o no?

[Eagle]

E questo ha riscontrato che diete low carb high protein portano ad un aumento della mortalità ... studiati 22944 soggetti ... 10 anni di osservazione ... aumento di mortalità per cancro e malattie cardiovascolari ...


Eur J Clin Nutr. 2007 May;61(5):575-81. Epub 2006 Nov 29. Links
Low-carbohydrate-high-protein diet and long-term survival in a general population cohort.

Trichopoulou A, Psaltopoulou T, Orfanos P, Hsieh CC, Trichopoulos D.
Department of Hygiene and Epidemiology, School of Medicine, University of Athens, Athens, Greece. antonia@nut.uoa.gr

OBJECTIVE: We have evaluated the effects on mortality of habitual low carbohydrate-high-protein diets that are thought to contribute to weight control.
DESIGN: Cohort investigation.
SETTING: Adult Greek population.
SUBJECTS METHODS: Follow-up was performed from 1993 to 2003 in the context of the Greek component of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and nutrition. Participants were 22 944 healthy adults, whose diet was assessed through a validated questionnaire. Participants were distributed by increasing deciles according to protein intake or carbohydrate intake, as well as by an additive score generated by increasing decile intake of protein and decreasing decile intake of carbohydrates. Proportional hazards regression was used to assess the relation between high protein, high carbohydrate and the low carbohydrate-high protein score on the one hand and mortality on the other.
RESULTS: During 113 230 persons years of follow-up, there were 455 deaths. In models with energy adjustment, higher intake of carbohydrates was associated with significant reduction of total mortality, whereas higher intake of protein was associated with nonsignificant increase of total mortality (per decile, mortality ratios 0.94 with 95% CI 0.89 -0.99, and 1.02 with 95% CI 0.98 -1.07 respectively). Even more predictive of higher mortality were high values of the additive low carbohydrate-high protein score (per 5 units, mortality ratio 1.22 with 95% CI 1.09 -to 1.36). Positive associations of this score were noted with respect to both cardiovascular and cancer mortality.
CONCLUSION: Prolonged consumption of diets low in carbohydrates and high in protein is associated with an increase in total mortality.

[Eagle]

perö ce ne sono altrettanti di studio che affermano il contrario o no?

No, solo che affermano che la cosa non è chiara. Almeno tra quelli che io ho letto...

[Ale86]

forse per il fatto che se fai una gara NATURAL ma sei doped, rompi il ***** a chi gareggia e si fa il culo da natural vero...invece i fighettini possono doparsi finchè vogliono tanto non danneggiano nessun altro se non loro stessi...

[Eagle]

Questo gruppo è svedese, quello del post precedente greco ... ma hanno riscontrato una situazione simile ... aumento di mortalità per malattie cardiovascolari (non parlano di tumori in questo studio) con l'aumentare delle proteine e il diminuire dei carbo ...

J Intern Med. 2007 Apr;261(4):366-74. Links
Comment in: J Intern Med. 2007 Apr;261(4):363-5. Low carbohydrate-high protein diet and mortality in a cohort of Swedish women.

Lagiou P, Sandin S, Weiderpass E, Lagiou A, Mucci L, Trichopoulos D, Adami HO.
Department of Hygiene and Epidemiology, University of Athens Medical School, Goudi, Athens, Greece. plagiou@hsph.harvard.edu
OBJECTIVE: The long-term health consequences of diets used for weight control are not established. We have evaluated the association of the frequently recommended low carbohydrate diets - usually characterized by concomitant increase in protein intake - with long-term mortality. DESIGN: The Women's Lifestyle and Health cohort study initiated in Sweden during 1991-1992, with a 12-year almost complete follow up. SETTING: The Uppsala Health Care Region. SUBJECTS: 42,237 women, 30-49 years old at baseline, volunteers from a random sample, who completed an extensive questionnaire and were traced through linkages to national registries until 2003. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: We evaluated the association of mortality with: decreasing carbohydrate intake (in deciles); increasing protein intake (in deciles) and an additive combination of these variables (low carbohydrate-high protein score from 2 to 20), in Cox models controlling for energy intake, saturated fat intake and several nondietary covariates. RESULTS: Decreasing carbohydrate or increasing protein intake by one decile were associated with increase in total mortality by 6% (95% CI: 0-12%) and 2% (95% CI: -1 to 5%), respectively. For cardiovascular mortality, amongst women 40-49 years old at enrolment, the corresponding increases were, respectively, 13% (95% CI: -4 to 32%) and 16% (95% CI: 5-29%), with the additive score being even more predictive. CONCLUSIONS: A diet characterized by low carbohydrate and high protein intake was associated with increased total and particularly cardiovascular mortality amongst women. Vigilance with respect to long-term adherence to such weight control regimes is advisable.

[relim7.]

bravo eagle.... gli studi ci sono... è che nesssuno ha mai voglia di mettersi a cercarli

[Eagle]

forse per il fatto che se fai una gara NATURAL ma sei doped, rompi il ***** a chi gareggia e si fa il culo da natural vero...invece i fighettini possono doparsi finchè vogliono tanto non danneggiano nessun altro se non loro stessi...

con chi stai parlando? e di cosa?

[Eagle]

Ci sono anche studi che non hanno rilevato "danni" da diete iperproteiche ... ma ATTENZIONE ... si sono sempre studiate diete di massimo 2-2,3 grammi kilo die, protratte per mesi o anni, non ho mai letto di dosi superiori ... e questo OVVIAMENTE fa una ENORME differenza ... quì leggo che 5 grammi pro kilo non possono fare male ... queste affermazioni fanno rabbrividire ... metti che le legge il ragazzino secco e si spara 5 grammi pro kilo per i prossimi 10 anni convinto che tanto non gli possono fare del male ... mah ...

[Eagle]

Prev Cardiol. 2006 Summer;9(3):166-71; quiz 172-3. Links
The skinny on high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets.

Cunningham W, Hyson D.
Family & Consumer Sciences Department, California State University, Sacramento, CA 95819-6053, USA. wcunningham@csus.edu
Short-term studies of high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets have shown weight loss and improvements in plasma lipid profiles. Studies of greater than 6 months' duration, however, have failed to show continued benefit of high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors compared with conventional diets. Without concurrent weight loss and caloric restriction, these diets offer no additional benefit to lipids or body weight over other weight-loss regimens. In fact, high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets may add additional risk to individuals with cardiovascular disease due to their high fat and cholesterol content combined with decreased intake of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and other nutrients related to cardiovascular risk. In addition, high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets have been implicated in other risks, including impaired renal, bone, and gastrointestinal health.